neverplaysfair | How's My Driving?

To be honest? Your Joshua seems pretty flat. He does not feel like Joshua, nor act like Joshua should. I've taken a look at your personality section and it seems really weak, as if you've only got the basics down. There is much more to read into if you pay close enough attention.

First of all, your Joshua is childish and petty and while he does act like a total brat in the canon, you're just not portraying that in the right way. Joshua is a pest. He pesters people, slowly wearing down their patience until he becomes unbearable. He does this frequently during week 2, from the moment they meet until day 7. Also, he does not giggle enough or carry that irritating tone as I read these tags. If he's being snarky, he needs to sound snarky. If he's pissed, he should be cold and aloof.

Joshua as Composer can best be compared to Old Testament God. He is compassionate and loving, however wrathful when he deems necessary. He is willing to listen to reason. On the inside, deeeep deeeeeep on the inside, Joshua IS loving and compassionate. He tries to hide it due to some insecurities, but he really does love mankind. Though it doesn't seem like it, he does give the Players advantages, by partnering them up and not allowing the Reapers to directly attack them until the 7th day. So he really does care. But, like Old Testiment God, he doesn't see anything coming out of Shibuya. There's a lot of potential, but people are wasting it. So he wants to stop the "disease" before it spreads. He's actually thinking about the world as a whole instead of Shibuya.

He is, if I'm not mistaken, post-game, in which he has had a change of heart. I don't know if you've seen the secret ending or read the secret or not, but if you have, you would know that Joshua doesn't really hold a grudge against Hanekoma for his actions. They are depicted together sitting atop a building, on talking terms. Joshua knows that it was for the good of Shibuya, even if his means of attempting to save it were a bit unorthodox. The means in which your Joshua has handled finding out such information has obviously not been such. And again, he has been very childish about it, if not outright cruel.

These are just a few major things I've noticed. You can take this crit as you wish, but I do hope I haven't insulted you and you will take what I've said into consideration. Thank you so much for your time.

. . . I probably shouldn't be doing this, because I don't even RP here - I was just looking at the community because it interested me and I wanted to ~~troll for icons~~ see how other people handled this character. So I have no idea if you're right about this Joshua being flat or not, although I do mostly agree with your first paragraph.

That being said, the second and third are, I feel, mostly subjective. The way I interpret the Game and Joshua is a little different - in my head, Joshua believes fully in trust and connecting with other people, which is way his Game is so centric on building partnerships. If you can't form a strong bond with someone, to the point where you put your life in their hands and vice versa, you can't win. Reapers can't attack directly for a week because it gives the Players time to build that foundation. That being said, I don't see him as a loving God, because he's perfectly fine Erasing people who don't build up this trust or have a weak Imagination or just plain bad luck. I see Joshua as more of a Darwinist, in a strange sense; those who fit his definition of 'weak' must either change or die out, Shibuya included. That being said, this is just an interpretation. And I think that's the point, really - Joshua is such a mysterious character, and we know so little about his backstory or his motivations, that we have to make up our own canon. So I don't think you can fault the mun for going against what you believe to be his 'real' personality, because nothing about Joshua as a Composer is set in stone. We only caught a glimpse of him, after all.

As for the third paragraph, I have to disagree entirely. There is absolutely no proof that Joshua knew about Hanekoma's betrayal in the post-game stinger. And while Joshua may understand Sanae's motivations, the guy was his only constant companion for god knows how long. And if we're to believe Mr. H's comments on Joshua's past, he's also the only friend the guy had as a human, and the only connection he has left to that humanity. So it's not strange to consider that he'd feel betrayed that Hanekoma could just throw him away so easily, even if it isn't rational.

TL;DR I have no idea if this critique is right or not and I'm not discarding it because again, never played here, but as a fellow Joshua mun I feel like some of the basis for it is a little weak.

(Also, are your icons gankable?)

The World Ends With You is a full of religious subtext, so of course I immediately have to turn to Old Testament God. While I agree he is a bit of a Darwinist and my view could very well be subjective, how can you justify him bringing Beat, who obviously had no advances for the human race, back to the RG without love?

You do have a good point there, honestly, and I didn't necessarily think about that. However, I have seen this situation handled before in a manner which to me seemed far more in-character. The initial confrontation I could understand, but the blatantly childish lashouts seemed very off for me.

HEY I LIKE BEAT ;_; I don't think Joshua is loveless, just that he's not loving, if that makes any sense. So the way I play Joshua, he has conflicted feelings about bringing back Rhyme (moreso than Beat) - he justifies bringing back back Beat, Neku and Shiki to himself because none of them really 'lost' the Game - Shiki actually won, technically, but Kitaniji couldn't revive her himself, so that's his excuse for her. As for Neku and Beat, the third week was clearly breaking all sorts of rules, and even if it wasn't both of them still reached the endgame unerased. Yes, there was that thing at the end with the gun, but that doesn't really count as a proper Game. Rhyme, however, lost fair and square and the fact that he brought her back means that he's getting too close to humans to dole out unbiased judgements.

So yes, I agree that he's not a heartless monster, but I think that he was getting dangerously close to it before the long Game and before Neku. Say what you will about justification, but the guy was about to destroy an entire city. That is not something a good guy does. And Joshua (my Joshua, at least) is not an omniscient god, he's just a human who was gifted with powers and uncanny wisdom - I don't think he was doing it out of love for mankind so much as pure frustration that they weren't turning out to be what he wanted them to be. The way I play him, Joshua does his incredibly irritating, unhelpful, cryptic best to push people to open up their worlds, but if they don't? He's not going to help them any more than that, he'll just watch them die with no emotion or regrets whatsoever.

And again, I haven't seen any of this RP, so you may be right about his interactions with Hanekoma. But I think that if Joshua is going to be petty and childish with anyone (in a serious manner, not just to purposefully annoy them), it would be Hanekoma, the only person who ever actually knew him as a child.

PS So I just realized that your icons and your lj page share the same wing design, and I'd feel really bad about ganking something that you made originally and spent a lot of time on. Can I ask where you got your bases, though? They're really smooth, and all the ones I've seen have sorta scratchy outlines. Thanks!

I do too, really! But from a Darwinist point of view, neither he nor Rhyme, especially Rhyme, should survive.

Yes, I agree. I am not saying he IS old testament god in the most literal sense, but rather has the basic personality, compassionate yet wrathful. However, I'm going to have to take my happy medium and say it was a mix of the two, because you bring up a very good point though I still feel compelled to partially believe it was for the good of the world. I'm not saying he loves each and every person, but mankind as a whole and thus he works to see it progress. Again, I apologize for the bible references, but I view the whole game as being loosely based off of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Kitaniji plays the role of Abraham and Joshua is god. Kitaniji is given a set amount of time to find a way to save the city, just as Abraham constantly appealed to God to find ways to save both cities. However, in the biblical tale, is incapable of finding any way of seeing potential in the city and it's corrupt people, and in the end burns them both to the ground with no remorse. It is because of that story that I view Joshua to act like Old Testament god. I don't think he's all-knowing and/or all-powerful, but his actions are remnant of that figure.

Would he be so childish as to openly imply Hanekoma's identity in a post where he knows for a fact Minamimoto is listening? That is what threw me off the most. As if he did it purposely.

I don't know? I agree with about Rhyme, but Beat not only became an incredibly strong Reaper (even if he couldn't actually Erase anyone), but he also survived three weeks and defeated Uzuki, Kariya, Shiki, Konishi, and Kitaniji. Since the Underground isn't based on physical strength, this means that he has a LOT of Imagination - he just hadn't found anywhere to focus it yet, which was the point of his character growth in my opinion. Like he said, Rhyme dreamed his dreams for him, but once he starts finding his own path, who knows what he'll do? Even Hanekoma said that the guy was a complete wildcard. (I know, not the point of this debate, but I love Beat :D)

ANYWAY BACK TO THE POINT there's definitely a relationship between the game and that story, you're right. But I don't think you can base Joshua's characterization off of anything not present in the actual game. There are plenty of other media out there that also spin off from the Bible but place God as a villain (Devil Survivor/Shin Megami Tensei, for example) and while God's root and history may come from Scripture, they are very clearly different beings. Like I said, I think Joshua told himself it was for the good of the world, when he was really just too far removed from humanity to sympathize with it any more - if Neku hadn't shown up, if he had destroyed Shibuya and somehow survived and retained his powers afterwords, I think he would have gone after the entire world next. He would have justified it to himself as humanity not being worth it, but even though he may have called it love, it would only have been a twisted version of it. (There's also a fic that brings up the point that Joshua's motivation was suicidal, in a way, as erasing Shibuya would probably erase himself.) Anyway, while he did thankfully change in the Game, I don't think it's to the point yet where he's a humanitarian, as he so likes to claim.

However, the fact that we are having this debate proves my point - there are many different ways to interpret Joshua's actions. Some see him as a straight up villain/psychopath, some see him as a sympathetic well-intentioned extremist, some think he's somewhere in the middle. The game is cryptic enough about his true intentions that we'll never know what's really canon, and I think the character's better for that.

As for the third . . . like I said, I haven't read this RP, so I'm not comfortable critiquing this mun. Joshua is a sneaky bastard after all, and without knowing the context or development, I can't say anything. I just wanted to offer my own two cents /cool story, bro. Sorry!

So I figured after all this teal deer, I should probably go see what I'm actually talking about. Anyway, I read the mun's profile for Joshua, and I think it's a valid interpretation? Again, you can't know anything for sure without actually reading the RP, but I definitely think she's got a solid grasp. My Joshua's a little less arrogant than hers (but that could be because his power's been cut down) and a little more 'just wants to be entertained', but again, I don't think she's wrong by any means. He's a very enigmatic character, after all.

Yes but his personality fails to show said solid grasp the profile appears to have. To me that solid grasp fails to register where it matters and I really have yet to feel as though I can agree with you, which is unfortunate. I could be completely off bass here, but I just don't feel like he acts like Joshua. The second and third paragraphs were I admit subjective if only because the most amazing Joshuas I've played with have had similar interpretations. Like he felt really dimensional, which seemeed logical to point out since this Joshua lacks that dimension. When the personality does not register correctly, nothing else does either.

I am not saying by any means that they are A terrible Joshua, because they're not. I just see room for improvement.

Lately, Joshua has been off. I realize this. He's been reeling from the betrayal, because through the constant cycle of Reapers and Players, Hanekoma was the one constant that he always confided in. More than anything else, he's hurt that Hanekoma doesn't even regret that he took steps towards erasing Joshua, and he's still dealing with that (and likely will be for a while).

Now that I've said that, I will go back and read through the specific comments, but that's what I wanted to throw out first.

His personality section (I'm assuming you mean my app?) is kind of weak, but I'm always kind of bad at conveying everything, and there's always stuff I miss that I play anyway, because I know it's there, I just don't think to put it down when I'm in the "oh man I have to cough up everything" mentality I get into when writing apps. I also never go back and revise it, so I'll ask if just for now we can leave that out of the discussion, and only use it as a base? I understand if you think this is me trying to avoid a point, and if you wish to pursue it instead, you're welcome to.

I realized as I was rereading old tags that my Joshua used to giggle a lot more. I've been meaning to canon review and try to get that back, but haven't had the time recently.

I've always felt that there was a reason behind his pestering, a method, something he was trying to get at. I'm not exactly sure if you mean the childish and petty carries into all his interactions, or just with Hanekoma? Because I will agree with you if it's just about Hanekoma, but again, he's hurt in a way he's never been hurt before and he's still trying to deal with that.

I've always thought that in the Secret Ending, he didn't know what Hanekoma had done, and was just mad that Hanekoma was rubbing it in his face that he revoked his decision. He also had no idea what Hanekoma had or had not told Sho, and my Josh thought that Sho knew that Hanekoma was an Angel. Yes, it was a bad assumption on his part, but it's the assumption he made. He's under the impression that there was a lot more going on behind his back than there actually was, and thus believes that Hanekoma shared a lot more with Sho than he did.

He does care for humanity, and he pushes everyone to get better in his own asshole way. He knew that Shibuya was slipping, and was willing to sacrifice Shibuya's growth and start over so that Shibuya wouldn't drag down the rest of Tokyo, or the world. This is another reason why he's so mad at Hanekoma, because if Minamimoto had taken over his seat through Taboo means rather than building up his Imagination, he wouldn't have had the personal growth to know what was best for Shibuya, and if Shibuya had kept slipping rather than righted itself, that may very well have ended in catastrophe. That, and Taboo Noise noms Reapers like no tomorrow, which is kind of bad when Reapers are the current candidates to eventually become Angels.

He's acting like a child around Hanekoma because he's never had to deal with something like this (in my headcanon, he died before he formed any close relationships and then didn't have any until Hanekoma), and thus hasn't had the emotional growth to not act like a child. This is the first betrayal of trust he's ever faced.

I'm also not big into the Old Testament or reading religious stories in general, but I feel like that should only give me a different interpretation rather than being wrong.

And to answer the icon question, I'd rather people not take these icons, but the only ones I'd really prefer not to be used elsewhere are any where his Luceti wings are visible. Unfortunately, I get my bases from all over the place (look here for starters, if it's still up) but I'm also willing to make people individual sets if they'd like? I'd also like credit for anything I made, if you'd be so willing.

If there's anything I've failed to address or articulate (I do not have enough sleep right now...), or you'd like to argue (either anon, I love discussions like this and I admit I haven't had a good, solid canon review in months), I'm more than willing to listen.

First I want to thank you so much for reading all this. I am admittedly terrible at writing critique, so this was me trying to get
everything out. Also, I'm really sorry if I came off terribly brash or rude, because my intention wasn't to cause harm. Really.

I honestly did not mean for the old testament thing to be as much as a "this is right and you're wrong" as it did (it's why I shouldn't write things at some ungodly hour). I didn't realize it seemed so this is the only way until after I had posted it, which was too late. Though I myself am not as much into the Scriptures, I grew up listening to said stories and so they are much more prominent in my mind. It is an interpretation, and potentially something to base ideas off of because of all the religious subtext in the game. Even the architecture has religious subtext, with numerous crosses scattered throughout. So again, sorry for being so "this is the only way", because it's not, just the most prominent from my perspective.

With the articulation on his actions towards Hanekoma, it makes more sense, however, still feels somewhat off in my opinion. Canon review might possibly be helpful for that? And I've already stated above that I didn't really think about the secret ending in regards to that much when I wrote that, so just kind of ignore that. I'm sorry.

As for the pestering, he does have a greater meaning behind it with Neku. However, he could possibly do the same with those who interest (or irritate) him. He really is a troll, when he wants to be. You could try having him outwardly act as if nothing had happened, or perhaps take out his frustrations with Hanekoma by being an absolute pest to others? Maybe? It's just an idea?

As for the canon review, that would probably help a lot. I know it has for me when I've been in a similar situation. I don't know if it's any help, but there is a game script on gameFAQS and there are playthroughs on youtube if you don't have time to play through the game yourself or just need a quick refresher.

I try to make him do it with everyone, it just comes across better sometimes with some than others. In the game, he does it with Ken Doi is the one that immediately comes to mind. I just... don't see him as a troll for trolling's sake. I feel like it's too ingrained in him as a Composer. He's used to hurting people to help them. That's what he does with the Game, and that's what he does in conversation.

He's trying to act to everyone else like nothing's happened, he just can't around Hanekoma. I don't see him taking out his anger on others, which is another reason why it manifests itself so strongly against Hanekoma.

I reference the game script, yes, but it doesn't have all the sound clips of him giggling which I feel is what I need to be adding as well. I really want to just sit down with the game for a while. I have maxed stats, it won't take too long to just run through week 2 and w3d7. I just need to dig out my DS. Really, I am long overdue for a canon review and I've just been pushing it off. Apparently too long.

It makes sense. I don't always see him trolling simply for trollings sake. I have seen that done before and it ended poorly, however, I do think it's alright for an occasional "don't feed the troll" kind of post.

Again, it was simply an idea. Neither here nor there.

That's true. Then do that? Though pushing off the canon review is sometimes bad (I've done that), but it makes the game seem all the fresher when you do finally sit down. Makes canon review less like work, I guess?

I'll be sure to review, anon, once school stops eating me.

And feel free to poke me again within a week if it looks like I'm not fixing things.

School obviously comes first and if anything still seems off, I'll be sure to let you know.

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to read this and being so receptive to the crit.

How's My Driving?

no subject

no subject

same anon

also same 2nd anon - this may get confusing

FUCK there goes my anonymity anyway 2nd anon

Anon 1 again.

Anon numero duo

Duo again

Anon Uno

Re: Anon Uno

holy wow, that was a lot to come back to

I'm so sorry for spamming your crit page. Original anon.

Really, it's just that I blink and suddenly WALL OF TEXT FWOOM

Again, sorry about that.

no subject

no subject